Animal Testing, and Why "Cruelty-Free" Doesn't Actually Exist.

Aug 12, 2014

Emily W.

Hey everyone,

I've noticed a lot of discussion about "cruelty-free" makeup and skincare and heard mention that many people avoid certain brands because they test on animals. There are a few misconceptions that I would like to address and rather than replying to every thread, this is easier. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble.

First, it is very rare for companies themselves to test directly on animals. Testing is expensive! Brands that claim that they don't test on animals are using ingredients that were already tested on animals at some point (because ALL INGREDIENTS have at some point in history been tested on animals) or they subcontract the testng to their raw ingredient suppliers in order to save money and their "reputation."

Companies that say that they never tested on animals are only telling half-truths, since all cosmetics at some point have been tested on animals. Yes, ALL of them. Many tests do not have effective non-animal alternatives, and these tests are necessary to ensure product safety (e.g. allergy testing, testing ingredients for long-term effects such as cancer, etc.). Products cannot be released into consumer markets without being declared safe first. For ingredients/products that have been on the market for a long time, these tests were performed decades ago--but they were still performed.

There is no such thing as truly cruelty-free cosmetics. Everything has been tested on animals at some point before being released into the consumer market. Avoiding certain brands has absolutely no bearing on animal testing; it only limits your choices of products for yourself.

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

Hahaha I've been thinking about all this every time I see someone who says that.But I have to disagree on how they're testing it for allergies , cancer , ect. These people know what they're doing and also they're doing it on purpose. I bet ya most of these companies no its going to effect people and give them diseases. Sad but true. You don't even have to look on the Internet , you can see It. But that's my opinion


Love the thread , because I've been seeing a lot of Beautylish girls saying there not buying it because they test animals.

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

Yep
I don't pay heed to those who preach about anti-animal testing and "cruelty-free" since they don't bother to really think of things like this
Also, the demonization of animal testing is naive considering how people like me are alive because of animal testing

While I don't care much about cosmetics being boycotted purged because of animal cruelty since I don't wear much makeup, I just wish people would think critically

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

I do agree with ciera about the company's indifference to consumers

Don't have absolute fate on them, they just want our money

Aug 12, 2014

Emily W.

Yes, companies may not give two figs about our safety if it means they can make a buck (history has proven that much, just pick up a copy of "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair, yikes). However, regulatory agencies (governmental and private) exist for just this reason. While the American FDA and European EMA have been subject to scandals in recent years involving bribes, kickbacks, and other issues partnering with companies to fastrack approvals or conceal ingredients issues; this has been a minority of incidents and there are many other consumer watchdog groups and independent inspectors that work to ensure product safety for consumers.

Ciera, I know that you are very staunch in your opinion regarding chemistry, product formulation, and capitalism. That is fine, but please don't preach your opinions as if they are fact, when there is rampant scientific evidence that refute your claims and NO scientific evidence to support them (I'm referring to your claims regarding products causing cancer, etc.). You have every right to believe whatever you want about chemicals in products, but spreading blatant misinformation is counterproductive fearmongering.

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

Ari I agree with ya. I still don't believe in testing on animals though.

Animals don't have human blood. So it wouldn't matter what your putting on or in them.You would have to use a human : 2 eyes , 2 hands , and 2 feets. You can't use a 4 legged animal and test and see will they survive it. Personally they're not testing the animals mostly. They're testing us.

Think about it: You pay for their products...They know ALL the ingredients , and know some of the ingredients can get addictive to our skin. They know we're going to pay for it. Someone put it on their face , get an allergic reaction...And have a disease...When you have a disease , what do you do? GO TO THE DOCTOR...Doctor prescribe you for something and you say "Oh, I'm going to be just fine!" You take the medicine he gives you , and for some unknown reason you get sicker. When you get sicker , you have to pay even MORE to be healthier...It's a game to the rich people who own these companies and for the ones who own hospitals and supply 70% of sick medicine

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

Emily it's what I believe in. And I wasn't preaching nor think it's a fact. Plus I'm not saying for anyone to agree with me. I rather not post where I got my information from but I gather it up and put out my opinion , you didn't have to be rude about it.

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

Ciera you're forgetting that humans are animals too
They don't have our EXACT blood but there are animals with APPROXIMATE similarities
It's not just extremities
It's why scientists test on rats because their internal structure is nearly the same as humans

And yea doctors can be ordered to promote a certain drug that can be deadly
Or only focus on treatment but no cure for poor people
However, I'm not going to say that doctors know ALL of the ingredients' effects

Aug 12, 2014

Andrea V.

Love this thread! In my opinion, or at least for me it is true, saying I am against animal cruelty will make me a hypocrite.

As bad as it sounds I do not care for animal cruelty kind of stuff, and let me explain why. If I just go out and say it like that ill be seen as an animal killer and all sorts of "you're a bad person" Comments. I have a lot of makeup from all kind of brands all ranging from drugstore to high end. I don't like to diss a brand for it not being cruelty free as it will make me sound hypocritical taking into consideration that almost every pair of shoes I own are leather, the exceptions being my flip flops and like a pair of sandals. I also own real leather jackets.

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

Ari that's true , but I think it's actually killing us. (Animals & Humans)


Lol I'm not a doctor and I don't know if they know ALL of it either. But I know the scientists know. I know for sure animals AND US are being tested though.

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

I meant ALL of us and (or) making us sicker.

Aug 12, 2014

Jenna M.

I don't know what kind of doctors you guys go to that are "ordered to promote drugs that can be deadly." All medications have risks and benefits they are weighed out for each situation. While you are free to your very own opinion there needs to be some realization that medications can not perfectly fix your body. There will be side effects but don't target doctors and medication companies as evil. That's just sad.

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

I've never said all medicine. I almost said Half. Plus I never even thought of them as evil I'm just saying half of this stuff is so they can get more money. Don't believe it , look it up.

Aug 12, 2014

Jenna M.

Sometimes in the case of HIV and viruses it is harder to eliminate / cure. In the case of genital herpes the DNA structure is quite similar to human DNA so therefore it is harder to develop drugs. I'm not promoting drugs or doctors. Some doctors I do not agree with their beliefs but you can't just say all drs are forced too prescribe medications that harm patients. Let alone companies do persuade drs to prescribe certain drugs and I believe there are restrictions to what incentives are allowed, but it is up to the patient to be an advocate of their own health and decide whether they will be compliant with the dr.

Aug 12, 2014

Jenna M.

Ciera I was reflecting to ari's statement :p no hard feelinggs.

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

I'm not denying humans are not tested
Humans certainly were tested on; especially the marginalized
I'm not a doctor either but I come from a medical family and am chronically ill so I'm essentially exposed to realities whether I want to or not
Evidently, there's a huge knowledge gap created by the higher ups
Even scientists can be placed in that gap

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them
Just have to be aware that there is information suppression goin on

Aug 12, 2014

Regan N.

I feel like this is definitely turning into a conspiracy theory thread, and veering away from the original purpose, so we should try to get it back to cosmetics and animal testing. (:
I love this thread! Very eye opening and informative!

Aug 12, 2014

Emily W.

Ciera: I wasn't being rude. In the past you have vehemently defended your opinions as demonstrable fact, and I was asking you not to do that because it is misleading. You have every right to believe whatever you choose to believe, and every right to express an opinion so long as you express it as such. I'm not going to argue with you about your views of practiced medicine, pharmaceuticals, or consumer product marketing, because it serves no point. I know that you will not change your view, and we can go in circles with each other until we're both (figuratively) blue in the face. I always welcome your comments for the sake of open discussion, and I hope you do not think that I am trying to attack you in any way.

Ari: You are correct. Genetically, many animals are nearly identical to humans and react in the same way as humans to ingredients.

Additionally, scientists can control test animals' genomes to act as a control-- something that cannot be done with humans. Using genetic engineering, they can create thousands of identical organisms (rats in particular), ensuring that any responses during testing are from the products, not another source (e.g. hereditary illness). Animals offer standardization and reproducibility in preliminary testing that humans simply cannot: researchers cannot control every aspect of a human's development from genome until testing (including diet, expression of certain genes, exposure to environmental influences, etc.).

Human tests are also necessary in product development, and are typically the end phases of development before market release. These studies have very stringent ethical and scientific regulations as well as strict criterion for whom they test and how. This was not always the case (particularly in medical research) but these regulations have been in place since at least the 1970s.

Testing continues after a product's release to ensure that the product is safe. Because the human population is so diverse, it is necessary to continue testing to find potential issues. 99.9% of the population may not react to a product; however it is necessary to determine that .1% and respond accordingly (usually via warnings to consumers and potential reformulations when possible). These tests also test long-term effects of repeat use. Very rarely does a regulated product end up completely removed from market because of serious issues-- and this is usually a result of some kind of corruption or fraud, as well as failure of oversight from larger regulatory agencies that are overburdened and underfunded (an economic issue, not an ethics/"values" issue). Most of the product scandals that resulted in fatalities or serious injury are products that are mostly unregulated, supplements in particular (anyone remember Ephedra?).

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

Dang my reply didn't show up

I'm not denying that humans haven't been tested
There's a dark past of human experimentation that hasn't ended
And also, I'm not into claiming that scientists know everything
Not because I'm defending them but because information suppression exists

I'm not a doctor but I belong to a medical family and am chronically ill so I'm exposed to some knowledge no matter what

Jenna doctors aren't free from capitalism and don't work independently
If they are told to promote something, they will or can face consequences
I'm familiar with medications' effects
I live because of meds

Aug 12, 2014

Shaye M.

Emily, you already know you're the best lol. :)

Aug 12, 2014

Ciciii C.

Jenna you are right and so are you Ari.

Emily I don't think I'm being misleading , I'm pretty sure no one isn't listening to my idea of thinking.

Aug 12, 2014

Emily W.

Here's my (minorly controversial) opinion: I support animal testing, because of the above benefits. It is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate these controls in human testing, and without these tests we simply cannot thoroughly investigate product safety. I would rather test on an animal that has been created exclusively for that purpose, than release an untested product to market and potentially injure thousands of humans.

I find "cruelty-free" to be a marketing ploy and a fashion fad, much like "natural" or "preservative free" products. None of these things actually exist. It is a way to prey on human vulnerabilities (empathy to animals; fear of chemicals and scientific illiteracy; lack of critical thinking either intentional or for convenience) and charge more for products that perform either the same or worse than their competitors.

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

Jenna:
I didn't say "all" doctors

Emily:
I will have to disagree with you on the ethic and scientific regulations
That claim ignores the societal context of medical history
Those regulations have only applied to the people that the higher ups have deemed worth protecting
The humans that have been tested on tend to be the marginalized such as people of color
I'll stop here since this is as far as I can go on mobile (can't access info easily)

Aug 12, 2014

Ari M.

Ahaha yes I'll end here by agreeing with Emily's opinion
I support animal testing

Aug 12, 2014

Kitty K.

Interesting thread.
I personally do not believe in animal cruelty free because at the end of the day I'm eating a burger lol.